Episode Transcript
[00:00:20] Speaker A: Welcome to 45. Left to right podcast. This is part three in my ADHD series.
Part one was ADHD in boys, where I spoke to Devin's friend Alex about his experience having ADHD. Part two was ADHD in girls, where I spoke to my friend Amy about her eight year old daughter's recent diagnosis with ADHD. And for this episode, part three, I actually interviewed Michael McLeod. He is an expert in parenting for coaches or I'm sorry, for coaching parents and kids who have ADHD, specifically in executive functioning. Before I get to the interview, I want to talk to you about executive functioning and what is it? Because I have not heard of this term until I started doing research for this podcast series.
Okay, so this is from a basic AI generated summary of several different sources. So, executive functioning includes several kind of tasks that I think many of us might take for granted. The first is planning, you know, creating a schedule, planning a project, or estimating how long a project will take. Organization, you know, it could be academic organization, like reorganizing or rearranging your desk, handling tasks by importance, or even just paying your bills on time. Attention. Paying attention to what you're doing or being able to focus on one task that is hard.
I find myself, just as a mother, managing a house and then trying to launch this podcast. I have a hard time sticking with one thing for long. That's just a nature of how busy I am right now. Both people with ADHD, that's all the time.
Okay. Problem solving, you know, finding solutions to problems, you know, kind of basic things, whether it's just fixing a leak or, you know, other problems like that.
Decision making, choosing, choosing.
You could tell this is AI generated, choosing a milk alternative. So I think that's self explanatory. Making decisions, social interaction, expressing empathy, maintaining control during debates, you know, not getting too angry or irritated or, you know, social clues.
Keying into social clues, body language, you know, and then adjusting your behavior to the social setting. Self control, especially regulating your emotions or monitoring your, as it says, internal or external stimuli.
Initiation of action, starting tasks and staying focused on them until completion. Sometimes it's easy to start a task, but difficult to finish, especially because you're paying, you know, maybe you're having a hard time focusing or paying attention, you know, it's difficult. And then transitioning, being able to flexibly transition from one situation to another. I know that is a big thing that I had to teach Devin as he was getting, you know, growing up, and even now too, but he's better at it, you know. Okay, we're gonna go from eating lunch to going out to run some errands, you know, being able to go from one to the other without too much stress.
Okay, so this is from. This is more about executive function as it relates to child development.
And this is from the center of the developing child at Harvard University. And it was, and this is, according to their website, created to bridge the gap between scientific research and practical application for kids facing adversity. Okay, so here are some sort of. This is kind of what they say about executive function and how important it is to child development.
All right, so executive functioning is super important. It's especially in the child. It's like the early building blocks for the rest of their lives.
It's very, very important for a child to be able to kind of master all of these skills so that as they get older, into adolescence and early adulthood, they're able to be successful. Now, young children, they struggle with self control, obviously planning. Maybe they're not doing that much planning, ignoring distractions. You know, I kind of. We kind of joke about that movie up with the dog, like, having a conversation or doing something and then squirrel. That's kind of like young children are easily distracted and then just adjusting to new demands in their lives, whether it's going to a new preschool or new school or trying to make a new friend or whatever.
Now, these are skills that don't necessarily happen as kids mature. It's not something that if, like, if they're automatically going to master, they have to be taught and prompted for these things.
So some of it is according to just basic brain development, but also it's being taught these things.
So anyway, so basically, teaching executive function provides a really good foundation, especially in young children, for, like, their early learning and then social skills.
Okay, so that's according to Harvard.
And then one last thing. This is according to the Cleveland Clinic, it's just one of their health articles on executive function. And what they talk about is there are three main executive functions. There's working memory. There's cognitive flexibility and inhibition control. So working memory basically helps make sense of and integrate new information with past knowledge. So basically taking things that have happened in the past and applying it to a new situation or adjusting as life changes.
Cognitive flexibility.
So this basically helps with being able to change and kind of transition into new things. Do it smoothly without too much adversity.
It helps kind of with you helping or adjusting your thought processes as life's events happen. Basically, it also can be multitasking, being able to do a few things at a time so kind of more just transitions.
And then we see this, especially in kids, but also with adults, inhibition control.
This is managing your thoughts and emotions and focus, basically helping resist being impulsive. Like somebody takes away a ball. This happens in my backyard a lot when Devin's friends are over.
He took the ball I was playing with, or he's cheating, not reaching out and, like, hitting the kid or really yelling at the kid. You know, those sort of things.
Sometimes we can get, like, overstimulated if there's a lot of things happening at once, like lots of noises, lots of people moving around, that can lead to making rash decisions or lashing out, those sort of things. Okay, so, executive function. The reason I bring this up is I interviewed Michael McLeod, who is with grow nowadays, and he also is a partner with ADHD guys podcast. I spoke to him, and this will be the bulk of the episode today. And we talked about executive function a lot as it relates to parenting a child with ADHD. Now, I discovered Michael because a friend of mine from baseball, a baseball mom, turned me on to the ADHD guys podcast. And so when I was looking at this, doing this series, I thought, you know, he would be really good. He has really practical information for parenting a kid with ADHD, but also, of course, four kids with ADHD. This is what he does for a living. And so he so graciously agreed to this interview. So let me talk a little bit about his qualifications. All right, so Michael is with grownow ADHD, and he has. And this is all according to his website, he has over 17 years of experience as an ADHD and executive function specialist. He has traveled all over the world and even lived in Australia for a year to work with nonprofits and professional ADHD organizations. He has a master's from Lehman College in New York and has worked with youth since 2005.
I picked him also because he is a speech language. Speech language pathologist. And I love them in general because they've helped Devon with his speech delay and articulation, and now he does have a stutter. So they're angels from heaven, if you ask me. So Michael partnered and worked with the Focus foundation in 2015, where he learned from doctors, neuropsychologists, and other specialists to gain in depth training and experience with ADHD in executive function research and development. He specializes in ADHD executive functioning and social executive functioning in parent coaching, because it's not always or it's not all about teaching the kids. It's also about teaching the parents different ways to, you know, help their kid with ADHD. With a lot of different things. And as I mentioned, he is the founder of Grow nowadays. So I am going to take a very brief little musical break.
[00:12:51] Speaker B: So, tell me, who are you and what do you do?
[00:12:56] Speaker C: Sure. So, my name is Michael McLeod. I am the owner of Grownow ADHD. We serve students and families dealing with ADHD and executive functioning challenges all across the country and internationally. So I started my career as a speech and language pathologist and was very lucky early in my career to work with incredible doctors and neuropsychs and various professionals that had great experience working with students and families internationally in hospital settings and various settings to learn more about ADHD and executive functioning challenges.
So one of the things I learned very quickly was that there's really not a lot out there for these kids. It's really medication or one of these really outdated recommendations that I'm sure we'll talk about today, where parents waste time and money. So what I wanted to do was develop a unique evidence based treatment model for students and parent coaching, parent training to help these kids. And we did a year long research study in the schools, so we work very closely. So my overall role now is I travel the country and internationally, training school districts and large groups, uh, on the most up to date research on ADHD and executive functioning so they can best serve their students within the school setting. Uh, so I do a lot of work with therapists and counselors and entire school districts and school leadership, and we serve students and families through one to one coaching, uh, and parent coaching, uh, via Zoom.
[00:14:32] Speaker B: Okay, great. I appreciate it. And that's my four month old puppy in the back.
[00:14:37] Speaker C: Very cute. Very cute.
[00:14:38] Speaker B: She's, uh, not taking a nap like she's supposed to.
Um, but that's great. Actually, one of my friends is an SLP.
[00:14:47] Speaker C: Oh, nice.
[00:14:48] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. And my son has a stutter, so, you know, you guys are the best.
[00:14:53] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:14:55] Speaker B: But she has a son with ADHD, and she said, you've got to listen to this podcast. You know, it's great, great information. So, yeah, I appreciate what you do, for sure.
[00:15:06] Speaker C: Thank you. Thank you so much.
[00:15:08] Speaker B: Yeah. So I guess originally, what got you into, like, working with kids with ADHD and with their parents? Just, you said just kind of. You saw a need for it, you know, overall?
[00:15:21] Speaker C: Well, like I said, I started my career as a speech pathologist. My entire life, I wanted to become a teacher. My mom was a teacher for, you know, like, 45, 50 years. So I always wanted to become a teacher myself. But as I got older, I realized that teaching was not the most promising profession, and I also wanted to be able to work with students one to one, and focus more on quality of life, not just an academic subject that they're probably not going to use in their life, like math and science and social studies and things like that. So I wanted to focus more on quality of life. And I eventually worked at a residential treatment facility where I learned a lot about speech pathology and went into there, and then I kind of naturally worked. So basically, in speech pathology, there's two separate areas. There's speech that most people think of, which is your ability to be understood, like stuttering, articulation, kids that can't do rs and ls and things like that. So most people think of speech pathologists as just speech therapists, but there's also speech and language. Language is very different than speech. And one aspect of language that I loved was the social aspect of the ability to have a social, pragmatic conversation and the ability to use language and self advocate and those kinds of things. So I kind of naturally, you know, I'm someone with ADHD who struggles very deeply with it myself and kind of going naturally. It all kind of just happened naturally, really. I kind of gravitated towards it and it's been great ever since. It's definitely an area of, obviously, outside of speech pathology. Like, it's my own little niche here that I've created, and it's been a lot of fun.
[00:17:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
I'll be honest. Since my son has mostly just done articulation and stuttering. That is how I thought about it. But I noticed near the end, kind of, of his treatment, at least formal treatment, I noticed they were working more on that language interaction sort of thing. I mean, my son is very talkative, and so, you know, working on that and having a conversation was important, you know, besides the stuttering. So I always said it's like the coolest thing to give to have a kid who loves to talk. A stutter or a speech language, you.
[00:17:57] Speaker C: Know, an articulation issue, but you got it.
[00:18:00] Speaker B: He does bring it.
That's never stopped him from talking.
So what would you say are some, like, defining traits of a kid with ADHD? And I know there's a lot of different ways it comes out.
[00:18:19] Speaker C: Sure. Of course. Yeah. So that's a great question. One of the best things that we have to do here, based on what we now know about ADHD, is we have to throw out some of our old ideas about it. So, first of all, it's not an attention disorder. It's not about attention. It's not an attention deficit. They have an abundance of attention. It's really executive functioning developmental disorder. So ADHD is a disorder of the prefrontal cortex and executive functioning. Uh, so the number one thing when it comes to ADHD is self regulation. So the ability to self regulate. Doctor Russell Barkley, the worldwide leader on ADHD, refers to ADHD as not attention deficit disorder. It's really self regulation deficit disorder. So this is the ability to regulate your emotions, your language, your body, your behavior towards various environments, towards various stimuli. So you're going to see kids that are very impulsive with their anger, very impulsive with their emotions.
And the two people that are going to get the really, the most of it are the parents. Uh, so the vast majority of kids with ADHD struggle most in the home towards their parents. So most people think about ADHD as school, paying attention, taking notes, having organized backpack, organized folders. It's really not that, so that much at all. Many of these kids respond very well to school and do very well at school. Uh, and they respond well to the structure and the accountability and the, you know, it's very, it's more rigid there and structured than it is at home. At home, it's unstructured. The screens are there, the video games are there, the parents are there. So the majority of behaviors is going to be in the home. So self regulation of emotions is number one. Number two is self motivation and the ability to motivate yourself towards non preferred tasks. So individuals with ADHD create their own little, very small, tiny, narrow comfort zone, which most often is video games, cell phones, iPads, screens, you know, Fortnite, Roblox, Minecraft, you know, those, those three things where they want every single waking moment to be in their comfort zone, and they only want to do what they want to do. You know, you see a lot of things on social media that the ADHD brain is novelty seeking. No, it isn't.
They want, they want the same thing every single day. They want to stay in their comfort zone. They don't want to do new things, especially for, you know, 1819 and below. Uh, so as the parent of a kid with ADHD, one of the most important things you can do is push your kid out of their comfort zone. Don't accept the, no, don't let them, you know, try to control every situation. Sign them up for activities, sign them up for sports, get them out of the house, get them playing, make sure you have a screen free house with tvs only, no video games, no iPads, none of that stuff, because they're going to get addicted and it's going to become a problem.
[00:21:19] Speaker B: Yeah, that's such a thing.
Because friends of friends of mine in particular are like, I just can't deal with. It's, you know, usually him, because I have a son all the time and, you know, the screen is kind of a, like, please be occupied, you know?
[00:21:40] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:21:41] Speaker B: So what is a way or what are some ways parents can deal with that? You know, their child saying, no, I'm not doing this. You know, like the refusal of the tantrums, you know, that's hard, right?
[00:21:54] Speaker C: Of course. Yeah. And one of the biggest battles parents are facing right now is all of the pseudoscience on Instagram. Instagram has pushed non evidence based information, feel good information for likes and follows, and having a college degree doesn't matter anymore. If you have a lot of followers, people are going to listen to you. So. And it's very easy to get followers when you push feel good information, that validates people's feelings and doesn't make them kind of feel bad and have to try harder things. You know, advice is supposed to be hard. Parent coaching is supposed to be hard. You have to persevere through that discomfort. Uh, so what parents have to learn, number one, is to use less language. Overall, parents of kids with ADHD learn to just lecture and talk and talk and prompt and prompt and prompt. One of the most important things parents have to learn is that language makes dysregulation worse. The more you talk, the more you. That your child is successfully sucking you in, into the argument vortex, the negotiation vortex, uh, the control vortex, that my friend Ryan the ADHD dude has coined those terms.
It's so unbelievably important that parents learn that the more you talk, the more your child's winning. So what you have to have when you are a parent to a child with ADHD is parental authority. You have to have authority because authoritative parenting is decades and decades and decades, evidence and research based, uh, the best thing for kids, and especially those kids with ADHD. But people hear the therm, the term authoritative, and they think it means you're an angry drill sergeant, yelling and screaming and strict rules. And it's not that at all. It's actually quite warm and nurturing and open communication and natural consequences. Parents have to learn how to say thing once, say things once to their kids and walk away. And if they say no or they have words back to you to pull you in and suck you in, they know exactly what they're doing. You know, they know how to say no. They know how to say, I don't care if I'm late for school or you can't make me go outside or I'm not going to do executive functioning coaching. I'm not going to do an art class. I'm not going to do a karate class. I'm not joining the swim team. They just know how to say things to push you in, to push your buttons and suck you in. You have to learn to just say things once, walk away, and set that expectation.
[00:24:19] Speaker B: That is tough, very tough. But, yeah, I know, I listened to one of your podcast episodes about that, about, you know, this is what I want you to do and walk away. And I think about the times and I think this is like overall parenting advice, too, is that I'm like, you know, a son's name is Devin. Devin, go get ready for school. And he doesn't say no, but he just doesn't do it. You know, Devin, your voice gets, you know, louder and louder. And, you know, some kids are like, why are you always yelling?
[00:24:56] Speaker C: Yep, yep, yep. It has, it ends up having the opposite effect. So you, as the parent have the best of intentions. You know, let me speed them along, keep them from being late and just remind them, remind them, remind them. You know, they, more, the more they hear a prompt, it becomes more stimulating to them to do the opposite. So if you say, go put your shoes on, they could go put their shoes on, do the right thing, maybe get, you know, a sentence of praise and move on, or they can hear, go put your shoes on, and they could run around the house and do the opposite. And that way you're chasing them around for 1520 minutes. So it's much more stimulating to do the opposite of a prompt than to just follow the prompt. So basically, you say it once you walk away, you go wait in the car if you can, you watch them on a Bibby monitor or the home security system, whatever you need to do. But the more you're on top of them, the more they're going to pull your strings.
[00:25:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Kind of the master manipulator.
[00:25:53] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:25:54] Speaker B: Whether they're aware of that or not, you know, different ages and you, so you had mentioned before the prefrontal cortex, it's sort of a disorder of that.
I mean, is that the only brain difference or what are the brain differences in someone with ADHD?
[00:26:15] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. So it's an executive functioning developmental delay. So that prefrontal cortex, that part of your brain right behind the forehead, is the last part of the brain to develop. So the brain develops from back to front over the first 30 years of life. So the brain is not fully developed until you're around 30 years old. If you have ADHD, you're going to have a three to five year delay, depending on severity. Uh, but there's, you know, several different areas of the brain. You have, you know, the amygdala, uh, is smaller and less active. The, uh, anterior cingulate, you know, the parts of the brain that are involved in social, emotional decisions, uh, emotional reactivity, uh, all those parts of the brain are less active, smaller, you know, reduced regional volumes and parts of the brain that have to do with the executive functioning system and self regulation and self motivation. We also have much less dopamine in the ADHD brain. Dopamine is that feel good endorphin, that feel good brain chemical, if you will, that, you know, when you're doing something good. After you exercise, you feel some dopamine. After you check something off your checklist, you get some dopamine. Um, uh, and that's part of the reason why these ADHD kids are so susceptible to screen addiction, because the screens give them a massive dopamine rush. But once those screens are gone, you ask them to do some homework, you ask them to do a non preferred task. Good luck. Cause all that dopamine is gone. Uh, so it's, uh, it's definitely a brain that is all about emotional regulation, uh, a lack of an ability to motivate yourself towards things outside of your comfort zone, which makes it very difficult to parent.
[00:27:55] Speaker B: Is there, as kids grow up and become adults, is there more incidence of addiction?
[00:28:05] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. Oh, yes, yes. ADHD is highly correlated to addiction. And Doctor Russell Barkley talks about this all the time. So if it goes untreated, unmedicated, those kinds of things, there's a very high probability they will get involved. And I. Drugs and alcohol or gambling or something like that, there's a very, very high correlation. So, you know, parents hear these things and they'll say, oh, you know, I can't take screens and a phone away. Because eventually he'll turn 18, he'll get a phone and then he'll overindulge in those things. That's actually not true. The whole point of delaying a smartphone, delaying video games, is to expose your child to varied experiences and teach their brain wire their brain to get stimulated by various healthy tasks. So your child goes off to college and he gets his smartphone, you're worried he's just going to sit in his dorm, on his phone all the time. But you're actually sending a kid to college whose brain is stimulated by exercise, going to the gym, going on walks, hiking, social interactions with friends, hanging out with friends, watching sports together, doing these things because you pushed him out of his comfort zone from zero to 18. So now when he gets a smartphone, he doesn't need to get addicted to it because he's addicted to healthy, positive things in a positive way. But as they get older, a lot of individuals with ADHD do not get diagnosed and do not get the treatment they deserve. And it's very difficult. It's very, very hard. And whether it's addiction or a negative self image or negative self worth and social struggles and, you know, can't get a job, can't keep a job, can't make friends, can't keep friends.
It's a very serious disorder. And doctor Russell Barkley does a great job talking about how serious it is. Most people think about ADHD as just this trivial, you know, attention problem. You know, give him some discipline, give him a cup of coffee, he'll be fine. But it's very, very serious.
[00:30:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I think, I'll be honest. Before I did a lot of this research and then before, I didn't know, you know, friends who had kids with ADHD, I just thought of it as like, the disruptive boy in the classroom, you know? I know.
And, you know, oh, they're out of control or they're interrupting or whatever, you know, first of all, I already know that boys are wiggling anyway in their natural form, but.
But, yeah, I'm kind of seeing it in front of me with, with other kids in my orbit and, yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot more than that, for sure.
[00:30:43] Speaker C: Absolutely. You got it.
[00:30:45] Speaker B: Yeah. I'm actually going to do a series, you know, this one's going to be more about boys and then I'm going to do one in girls and then women and men because it show up differently and all.
[00:30:58] Speaker C: That's great. A series on ADHD.
[00:31:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:01] Speaker C: Oh, that's so nice. That's amazing. Yeah, yeah. I would love to be a part of that in any way. Whatever. I can do that.
[00:31:05] Speaker B: I appreciate it. Yeah, yeah. My interview, more about girls. We'll see. Still kind of getting things in line, which brings me to my next topic a little bit. Is treatment kind of what you do in particular of ADHD, different in boys and girls since it shows up kind of differently?
[00:31:27] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, of course.
I think one of the main tenants of the grown out model of executive functioning is that it has to be tailored towards a unique individual.
I think it's very easy to get caught up in girls versus boys, but I can tell you right now, in all my years of doing this, a decade of doing this, I've never met two boys who were the same and I never met two girls who were the same. A lot of people would like to just think that boys are hyperactive and girls are inattentive and girls internalize on average. Probably that's, that's probably true, but I've met a lot of girls who were super hyperactive and I've met a lot of boys who were not hyperactive at all and we're all inattentive. Uh, so at the end of the day, it has to be tailored towards the unique individual and the unique family. Uh, anytime you take a one size fits all approach, ADHD is a spectrum, just like ASD with autism. You have individuals who are. We don't really tend to use these terms anymore, but for the sake of it, we have individuals who are very low functioning and need lots of assistance and really can't be left alone. They're nonverbal, they can hurt themselves, they can hurt others. Then you have individuals who are very successful on the autism spectrum and are, you know, doing very, very well in life. So it's a wide, wide spectrum. It's the same thing with, with ADhd. It's a spectrum. No two kids are the same. It's unique snowflakes each and every one. Uh, so if you take a one size fits all approach, just based on diagnoses or gender, uh, you're not going to do the right thing. Uh, so you have to find out who this unique individual is. Who is the unique family? What are the family values? What's the family structure? What's the screen time like? And basically just like, what is the child's day today?
So whether it's a boy or a girl, the very first question you have to ask when you're working with an individual with ADHD is what does their day to day look like? That's the first question on our intake forms we send to families. Do they wake up, go to school, come home, stay home? Are they in full school refusal? Are they not even going to school? Are they doing after school activities? Are they going outside?
Do they just sit in the house all day and just argue and argue? You have to find out exactly what's happening and whether it's a boy or a girl. It's really just experiences. What are their daily experiences.
[00:33:47] Speaker B: Yeah, that makes sense.
So we had, you, of course, mentioned executive functioning and emotional dysregulation.
What are these exactly?
[00:34:03] Speaker C: Sure. So, executive functions are the greatest predictor of success for human beings, period. Not iq, not grades or anything like that. If you have executive functioning, it will be easier for you to get a job, keep a job, make friends, keep friends and live independently. These are the true independent skills of life. Most people hear the term executive functioning and they think of just time management, organization, the ability to have a clean room, a clean backpack, clean folders, and use a calendar or use an agenda. And that's really not it at all.
I define executive functions as four basic things. The first is overall self awareness. Are you aware of yourself? Are you aware of your language, your behavior, your effect on others, your effect on yourself, your own strengths, your own needs, your ability to perceive yourself in time and space.
Number two is self evaluation, the ability to learn from past experiences and apply it to the present so you don't repeat mistakes. So you are able to utilize your working memory aspect, your nonverbal working memory aspect of hindsight. Can you visualize the past and not repeat mistakes? And then there's self regulation of emotions, language, body behavior, and then self motivation. So self awareness, evaluation, regulation, and motivation, the four main areas. And there is no time management, there is no organization without self motivation and self regulation and self awareness, you have to be aware of, hey, if I'm going to organize my backpack, if I'm going to clean my folders, if I'm going to put things in the right place, it's because it's going to affect me later. You organize and manage your time now to help your future self. So unless there's future thinking, using your foresight, your hindsight, having self awareness, regulating towards the moment to delay gratification, to do boring stuff now, that helps you later, there's none of that. So, for decades, we looked at executive functions as just things you need if you work in a cubicle, things you need if you're at school, things you need in your locker, how to organize your Google classroom, how it's just a school based disorder, and that's not it at all. Most people with ADHD struggle in the home, struggle with social relationships, and actually do quite well at school. But there's many, many who struggle at school. But, you know, we still have doctors saying, you know, take your medication on school days, don't even take it in the summer, don't take it on the weekends, which is nonsense. These kids are struggling outside of school.
And we have to rec, we have to look at executive functions as true life skills. True life skills. There's academic executive functioning, social executive functioning and home executive functioning. And we have to look at all three areas.
[00:36:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
I, you know, my family, son plays baseball and soccer and all those things. And some of the boys that he plays with and actually he does as well have these big emotions. You know, I struck out just bawling and more. Just really hard on themselves, really tough expectations on themselves. But it's this.
They have no sense of the importance of this in the grand scheme of things.
Is that kind of part of, I guess that's an emotional dysregulation.
How as parents, can they help them have some perspective without, I mean, it's important to them. When you're twelve years old, that's important to you, but also say, hey, there's more games, you know, what are some ways they can deal with that?
[00:37:52] Speaker C: Yeah, so a lot of that overall, twelve years old is still really young and we're talking about competitive sports. So a lot of that is fairly typical. It all depends on how large the tantrum is. Are they flipping their bats, screaming and crying in front of the entire team, going nuts? You know, things like that, that's not acceptable, but, you know, crying or getting really mad after striking out in a big spot when you're twelve years old, you know, that's, you know, that's not that far off.
But you know, overall, you know, basically as a parent is you kind of just, you know, want to be there for them. You can just give them a hug and rub their back and let them whine, let them complain. And then you have to just wait until they're regulated. If you're crying, if they're crying and screaming and just not at baseline whatsoever, you really should not be conversing with them. Uh, you really can't be just throwing language at them, throwing language at them. You have to back off, you know, let them chill a little bit and then when they're later be like, hey, do you remember what happened, you know, when you struck out and when you got really mad and you cried and you scream and you threw your bat? Uh, do you remember that situation? Like, have them describe it, what they were thinking, how they were feeling, uh, and then help them recognize, hey, how do you feel now? I, like, I notice you're not crying and screaming now. I notice you're laughing and playing, you know, what happened. And then, you know, help them learn that, you know, emotions are temporary feelings are temporary and we learn from the failures, you know, share stories with them about, you know, Michael Jordan getting cut from his, his high school basketball team. Show him, you know, the best baseball player in the world and how often they strike out, you know, all the different failures, like, you know, Tom Brady lost a couple of Super Bowls, you know, you know, different things like that. So sharing stories like that always help a child.
[00:39:40] Speaker B: Yeah, it's always this, it's easy or you really want to, like you're driving home in the car and be like, hey man, what was that?
[00:39:49] Speaker C: Or whatever.
[00:39:50] Speaker B: And I've learned over the years of him playing, just give them the space. You know, my son takes it very hard, you know, give him some space. And usually once he gets home and gets some food in him or whatever.
[00:40:11] Speaker C: You got it. Yep.
[00:40:12] Speaker B: So, so as part of this episode, I actually interviewed one of my son's friends who has ADHD and had quite an awareness of it. He really surprised me, honestly. He, you know, he's twelve years old and that's quite rare. Yeah, yeah, I mean he's, he's fantastic. But he, one of the things he brought up a few times was, you know, I've asked him when did you kind of become aware that maybe you were different than, than other kids and how you do things? And he's like, well, my biggest awareness is that I couldn't make or keep friends because I, you know, just didn't know how to, how to deal or how to do things.
He's very impulsive, you know, which he's aware of. But as far as those social interactions, what are some ways you coach the kids? And I know the parents are part.
[00:41:14] Speaker C: Of it too, of course. Yeah. And this is a huge, huge aspect of ADHD, something that I've personally dealt with and it's really hard. So this is the social executive functioning aspect.
And most people think of social skills, topic maintenance, circles of communication, eye contact, all of that is nonsense. That's not going to help you make and keep friends. It's really social executive functioning. So what we need to look at is perspective taking skills and to better understand the kinds of thoughts and feelings we give other, others. And we have to help these kids develop an internal system of checks and balances where they're really thinking about what others are saying, thinking about what others are doing, and really self monitoring themselves during social situations and not just blurting things out, saying the wrong things. It takes a lot of practice. One on one. A lot of people think, oh, my son needs to be in a social group, throw him in a social group, get him around people. Yeah, that's great. But really what's best is just real natural play, exposure through sports activities and unstructured play. These structured social groups really are not correlated to a lot of social success in these kids because they're all parent, because they're all adult driven and adult structured. Really what we have to do is work with them one on one, do lots of parent coaching and parent training, build those social executive functions, build the perspective taking, build this internal system where they're processing information, they're thinking, they're coming up with thoughts and saying, you know what, I'm not going to say that out loud. You know what, that's not really worth saying. I'm just going to learn to be comfortable in the silence. So that's one thing with ADHD kids is they have to learn how to just be able to sit, listen and not respond to everything that people around them say. Just kind of sit there in the silence and it's okay to be quiet. It's okay to be a quiet person sometimes and just be more of a listener. So giving them the self regulation skills to do, to really do that.
[00:43:17] Speaker B: Yeah, a lot, you know, a lot of it is.
[00:43:19] Speaker C: It's tough.
[00:43:20] Speaker B: It's tough, yeah.
Especially like, you know, I'm looking at twelve years old now and for my son and his friends and they're on this, you know, cusp of becoming teenagers and all of those things. So it's a just a lot of different things I gotta deal with speaking up. And I got only a couple more questions for you.
Can puberty change ADHD? If I read somewhere like a 50% chance that will get better and 50% chance that it'll stay the same or get worse, is that true? How does it change?
[00:44:02] Speaker C: I don't know about the percentages, but I do know that during puberty is a massive time of executive functioning development.
So when it comes to executive functioning it's are you independent or are you prompt dependent on others? And during puberty you start to develop a real motivation towards being independent and wanting to do things on your own. And it's a period of rapid brain development and body changes and things like that. So you should expect improvements through puberty. This is where you see a lot of kids go from hyperactive to inattentive type. Uh, so they're not so hyper with their movements, but they still require a lot of, uh, help with their overall self regulation of emotions at home and self motivation towards non preferred tasks. Uh, so a lot of things will change during this time, hopefully for the better, but you're still going to need to really make sure they're not getting lost in the world of screens, video games, computer games, uh, cell phones, things like that. And you're going to still, you know, especially during this period of independence. You know, we don't want them just going to school, coming home, staying home. This is really the age where they're out riding bikes every day and they're going to the. They're getting dropped off at the mall or they're going to the YMCA and they're, you know, less adult supervision is better.
[00:45:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
All right, final question, and I really appreciate all this information.
[00:45:26] Speaker C: Of course. Thank you for having me.
[00:45:28] Speaker B: Yeah. What are your thoughts on using medication to treat ADHD? Because I know a lot of parents are like, no, no, I don't want to do that.
You know, you've mentioned it before, but, you know, what are your thoughts on that?
[00:45:43] Speaker C: Well, my thoughts are exactly what the evidence and the research says. You know, there's a lot of stigma around ADHD medication because of how it's abused on college campuses and things you read in the news and read on parent Facebook groups. But the research and the evidence tells us that it's a very positive, beneficial thing. Uh, and that's decades and decades of research. ADHD medication are some of the most, you know, highly tested and research based medication in all of psychiatry. Uh, so the medication is safe, it is effective. Uh, and it. It does, you know, wonderful things and could speed up that development of the brain. You know, listen to doctor Russell Barkley talk about ADHD medication and see what you think after that. Uh, but at the end of the day, this is all about the family and a conversation with the doctor. I am not a licensed physician. I don't prescribe medication. I don't do any of those kinds of things. You know, you have to have this conversation with the pediatrician, with the licensed physician. You know, one of the problems is that maybe there's one too many ADHD medications these days. So that trial and error process, trial and error process where you can see some changes in appetite or sleep or mood, it's very hard on parents. Uh, but you need to have those conversations with the doctor, find the right meds, find the right dosage, figure out if it's right for you, and, you know, kind of make your choice from there. But ADHD medication is overall a very positive thing.
[00:47:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I've seen it change lives, honestly, in some kids. So well, I can't thank you enough. I really appreciate it again. And, you know, I will send this episode to you when it's done so you can see it or share or whatever you'd like to do, especially the interview with my friend, Devin's friend. He's fantastic. I think he loved that.
[00:47:38] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. And thank you so much for thinking of me. I was so happy when you reached out. It's always a privilege to be invited on someone's podcasts, and as someone who does a podcast, myself, the ADHD guys podcast, I know all the work that goes into it. So for you, being a one person show and doing all of this yourself, that's highly commendable.
So thank you for doing a series on ADHD. I think that's incredible.
Thank you for all the work you're doing and for having me on.
[00:48:08] Speaker B: Yeah, well, thanks. Have a wonderful day.
[00:48:11] Speaker C: You too. Thank you so much.
[00:48:12] Speaker B: All right, bye.
[00:48:29] Speaker A: Welcome back to 45, left to right podcast. I hope you enjoyed my interview with Michael McCloud. I sure did. I really enjoyed talking to him and learning more.
I just. I didn't have anything revolutionary to say. But I do know a lot of people who are parents to kids with ADHD. So I wanted to share just some resources that I have found to help you out, because I know, you know, there's behavior issues to work through, and kids who refuse to do things or throw tantrums or react emotionally to a lot of things might struggle in school, might struggle to make friends. I mean, there is a lot to it. And so a few resources that I have come across in my research is one Michael mentioned, Doctor Russell Barkley. He is like, the expert in ADHD. He's a neuropsychologist. He's retired, but he has a YouTube channel, and I would definitely check that out. I checked out a few of his videos. Very informative, but also understand, you know, he can understand what he's saying. It's not a bunch of jargon. So if you look him up on YouTube, it looks like his username is Russell Barkley, PhD 220 23. So. R U S S e l L B a r K L E Y. Ph. D. 2023. He's awesome.
Another one I found is additude magazine. That's additude magazine online. There is a ton of information there, and the people contributing to it are the leaders in ADHD research. So definitely go there. And then, of course, the ADHD guys podcast, ADHD parenting podcast, which is hosted by Michael McLeod and also his partner, Ryan Wexelblatt. Who is a licensed social worker and also has go to his website ADHD dude. There are lots of other podcasts that you can check out. That is the only one that I've listened to so far, so that's the one I'm going to recommend. But there's a lot of content out there and so if you are a parent who is just in the thick of it with your kids right now, I just want to encourage you. I have many children in my life with ADHD and I can say that each one has so much to offer the world. So just hang in there. These are some great resources. I've got a few more episodes planned about ADHD. Not sure quite on my timing yet, so no promises, but there's more coming and so thanks for listening. If you do listen to this podcast and like this podcast, I'm on Instagram, Facebook, and I just started on YouTube and of course I do have a website. 45 left and right podcast.com. the most helpful thing that you can do for me is to share it with a friend who you think might like my podcast. I'm just trying to get more followers and listeners, and word of mouth is where we are right now. So please share with a friend. Really hope you enjoyed and bye for now.
